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  1. lee winters
    lee winters at |

    The worst thing about the rape of ms. Marvel was the avengers behaviour ! They were very callous to carol. They actually showed sympathy to the rapist.

    Reply
  2. Dante Li
    Dante Li at |

    Still pretty bitter about “Sin’s Past”, and “One More Day” made me jump ship to DC. Now DC is sucking hard, both Marvel and DC are shit shows. Their stories have become so convoluted and unbelievable! (Snyder’s awful Endgame, Gordan as a new Batman, Spidey now the head of X-Men…) It’s strange how tv/movie verse is now a thousand times better than comics.

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  3. Atma
    Atma at |

    Wow lame.

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  4. Matt
    Matt at |

    I would replace Civil War with the Superior Spider-Man.

    Plot holes galore, dumbing down the entire Marvel Universe, insulting the intelligence of longtime readers, and how NOBODY BUT JOE QUESADA’S DAUGHTER AVATAR (Carlie Cooper), AND NORMAN OSBORN CAN FIGURE OUT IT IS DOC OCK!? Even though:

    1. Kaine, a clone of Peter with all his memories up to his college years, FOUGHT AND KILLED DOC OCK! To top it off, Ock ALL BUT ADMITS “I AM DOC OCK!” In said fight.

    2. Wolverine, access to dozens of telepaths (this is even addressed in a spinoff story in Avenging Spider-Man) doesn’t call a telepath to Avengers Tower when they “scan” him in Issue 7?

    3. IN Issue 7, HE OUTRIGHT ATTACKS THE AVENGERS AND SPEAKS AS A FULL SUPERVILLAIN! Something Peter IS NOT KNOWN FOR OUTSIDE OF CIVIL WAR.

    4. Why in Issue 7 DID THEY GET THE SCIENTIFICALLY RETARDED AVENGERS to scan “Peter?” when not 17 issues ago (back then comics came out bi-weekly, so not even 7 months of publication had passed) when Peter made Alpha by accident, Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Hank McCoy, T’Challa, and Tony Stark ALL CAME OUT TO SCAN HIM!? So wait, they will take time to scan a little shit brat, but not PETER PARKER!? The guy ON EVERY SINGLE MARVEL TEAM AND THEIR DOG!?

    5. Mary Jane. She has been kidnapped MORE TIMES THAN ANY OTHER GIRLFRIEND BY DOC OCK. How does she NOT recognize his speech pattern, especially when she is an ACTRESS? Speech and dialect is a learned skill in that department!

    6. Aunt May was ENGAGED to Doc Ock, which means Ock spent time with her to get to one another (which they selectively ALLUDE TO!) AND she RAISED Peter! So wait, she DOES NOT RECOGNIZE NOT ONLY PETER OUT OF CHARACTER, BUT SHE CAN’T RECOGNIZE OCK’S SPEECH PATTERN!?

    7. Spidey takes over a supervillain prison, blackmails Jonah, destroys Shadowland, employs known criminals and it takes NEW YORK UNDER SIEGE FROM THE GREEN GOBLIN FOR THE AVENGERS TO GET INVOLVED!?

    8. Venom Symbiote. Nuff said. That story was REALLLLY stretching it.

    9. Selective continuity. Slott is a little bitch both in real life and in comics apparently because he will address bits of continuity that HELP his story, but ignore the dozen or so more stories of not just Spidey but THE ENTIRE MARVEL UNIVERSE to suit it. EVEN HIS OWN WRITING! He wrote “Ends of the Earth” and IN that Spidey story, which was only 25 issues prior to SSM by the way, Ock wants to slaughter 6 BILLION people on Earth, and wants to be bigger than Hitler, Stalin, and Polpot! NO! You don’t suddenly get to flip the script!

    10. Spidey murders and tortures people for science. The Avengers are aware of BOTH of these things and don’t think that is odd? Apparently not. Oh and two sentences from Black Widow isn’t a justification!

    11. It turns Black Cat into a low grade supervillain, EVEN THOUGH SHE TOO FOUGHT OCK MANY TIMES AND SHE DOESN’T RECOGNIZE HIM EVEN THOUGH HE USES THE SPIDER TENTACLES AND TOTALLY FIGHTS LIKE OCK IN SAID FIGHT!? Oh and when Peter returned and he told her, she didn’t believe it UNTIL he pretended to be Ock to prove a point, and yet she STILL went supervillain and STILL didn’t believe he was Ock, even though not 20 panels of comics ago SHE JUST SAID “OH! IT IS DOC OCK! IN SPIDER’S BODY! NO!”

    12. Mary Jane again, along with the rest of Marvel except Captain America (a guy who consistently suspected Peter was NOT Peter yet kept shrugging it off as “meh”) believe INSTANTLY that Doc Ock was in Peter’s body. BULL. THAT IS TAWDRY AT BEST!

    13. Instead of Peter’s return and being introspective of his loss, he gets chucked into a bad sitcom where we have a Mary Sue arrive in the form of Silk, he’s dating a midget, his broad of a business partner is trying to oust him, and despite being back, head of a company, and a grown ass man even in Danny Boy’s writings, he gets emasculated over 3 women who have more issues than Action Comics! BULL!

    14. Spider-Verse feels less like a big Spider-Man fiesta celebrating what made Spider-Man special and have Peter as the hero, but more another excuse for Dan Slott to give Silk a rug munch over Spider-Girl (a fan favourite and the longest continuous comic series starring a female heroine without breaks or reboots) and the Inferior Spider-Shit over Peter to the point where even WHEN Peter punches the living shit out of Ock for the upteenth time, you don’t really care!

    15. Every other member of the Sinister Six doesn’t recognize Ock’s speech patterns either even though THEY ALL WORKED WITH HIM FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND HE EVEN RECRUITED THEM FOR HIS SPIDER TEAM!?

    THE ONLY THING that is worse than this abortion of a story (that somehow fans lapped up and ate shit along the lines of Clone Saga (which people seem to like in hindsight thanks to Ben Reilly…) is One More Day. The ULTIMATE Spider-Man abortion (no pun intended) because that too bastardizes Peter as a character, refuses to acknowledge his growth, dumbs him down, and ignores the Back in Black subplot of “LET ME DIE! YOU ARE MORE IMPORTANT!” Since you already said enough about this piece of shit though, I will leave it beyond the fact that all they have done is constantly tease readers whenever Mary Jane shows up and go:

    “See that? See that? There she is! Want her! Go get her!”

    *yanks the football away last second*

    Yeah, even Dan Slott made the Lucy and the Football reference, and that jerk needs to get shot. Or liposuction. Either or, the dude’s extremely horrendous professional attitude towards fans concerning his work (getting people thrown out of cons, banned from forums, attacked on twitter, tumblr, and beyond) even if they SLIGHTLY made a negative comment. He was the ultimate troll and masturbated on the idea of pissing long time readers off, which he did and still is doing. Did he FORGET the only people READING comics ARE LONG TIME READERS!? YOU IDIOT!!!! Especially when he used the vaunted sales argument: “Well sales are up so I did something right…”

    Yeah, you realize that Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace made a TON of money, yet to fans it didn’t make it “good” because all they remember from it was Jar Jar and Jake Lloyd. ARRRRRRRRRRRRGHH!

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  5. cpj
    cpj at |

    this list is complete garbage. Readers loved spidey getting buffed in one more day. people loved civil war, hence why its getting a movie. I think you put a couple of these in there just for shock factor because everyone knows the crossing and clone saga are the top two worst for marvel.

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  6. Rubydup
    Rubydup at |

    I agree with your list except Civil War and also I will add Hickman’s run and incursion which is biggest BS on Xorn or teen Iron-man level. Because it just doesn’t make sense :D.

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  7. RoG™
    RoG™ at |

    I came hear mostly to confirm that my most hated, ‘one more day’ was on the list. That storyline was really bad. We already know Mephisto has a love of taking souls, making people his slaves, etc….but he’s willing to let Aunt May live just so he can get some jollies out of Peter never falling in love with MJ. wtf? why not take spider mans soul, or make him do your dirty work? The dialog while he’s explaining the rationale for it is cringe inducing, a bunch of ‘power of love’ type garbage that nobody would believe. It really really bothered me because i had just started collecting spidey again after a few years off, and the stories were getting really good. ‘brand new day’ and the ensuing reboot was awful, with dumb new villians and more traditional spidey stories.
    I will say i don’t think Civil War belongs on here. I really liked it. It wasn’t perfect but it was entertaining. I really didn’t think it was much of a stretch to think Tony would do something like that, and behave in that matter. I think we need a little gray area in our stories sometimes…its not all good vs evil. I do feel however, that the whole spider man unmasking was just a tool to get them to where they wanted to be so they could do the spidey reboot they wanted.

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  8. Sacrificial Lamb
    Sacrificial Lamb at |

    Civil War drove me away from comic books. 🙁

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  9. Hornacek
    Hornacek at |

    I can accept them unmasking Peter if they knew it was not going to be permanent but their reason for doing it was character growth and story potential. But that is not why they did it. The only reason was that it was one of their stepping stone to undoing the marriage. They weren’t interested in exploring the ramifications of it because they didn’t do anything with it. Peter David (and maybe Roberto Aguiera-Sacasa) was the only one that tried to write some stories that dealt with it, but those stories were ignored by the main book because Amazing was all about getting Peter to the point where he would make a deal with Satan to undo his marriage to save his 90-year-old aunt.

    The death of Billy Connors is terrible, but it loses out a bit on “worst moment” because all of Shed is just awful. There is nothing redeeming about that story. Ugh.

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  10. Gojirob
    Gojirob at |

    I would say, for myself, that one of the worst aspects of Peter’s unmasking was that, with a bare few exceptions, we saw no positives to this – only negatives. Yes, the villains were going to come after his family, but except for Peter David’s book, the possible good was never even explored.

    Another point against all of Civil War was inconsistent scenes between issues like : Tony telling Peter in Peter’s book that the imprisoned were there for life, while in the main CW issue, he told him they were just there till they registered.

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    1. Hornacek
      Hornacek at |

      That’s because they never intended him unmasking to be a permanent thing. They have admitted that the only reason they did it was to put him in the position where he would have to make the deal with Satan (i.e. Mephisto) to reverse it and the marriage. Quesada was hellbent on fixing a problem that didn’t exist.

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      1. Gojirob
        Gojirob at |

        I get that, about Quesada’s antics. I just meant that, even as a temporary plot twist – and no one anywhere I think believed that it was permanent – it was poorly utilized. Again, except for PAD’s work, and maybe Peter getting to tell hypocrite Liz Osborn off, the good in this move was completely overwhelmed by an utterly predictable villain attack storyline. This also has the extra effect of making Tony and Reed look even dumber or viler for not taking surveillance on everyone from Aunt May to Peter’s oddball roommates from the JMS Team-Up days–and don’t tell me they were concerned for their privacy.

        They really should have unmasked Peter a year before the War, as part of the build-up. The storyline was strangled by coinciding with the CW. Linkara said it : You can’t shift the status quo when no storyline is around long enough to become rooted.

        As a worst moment, I’m going to give special mention to the hideous pointless death of Billy Connors. I hope he is reborn on an Earth with Lian Harper as his little sister. If they ever want to hard reset anything else, have it turn out the entire Connors family has been in cryo since Calypso’s Lizard attack in Todd Mcfarlane’s day, and the ones we’ve seen tormented and die were voodoo clones. That one, I would support.

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  11. Davidson
    Davidson at |

    Wow just wow. As a comic book fan from the early 90’s it’s really sad when you realize the types of idiotic decisions that were made with storyline, dialogue, and art.
    Also I can’t believe “Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil that Men Do” didn’t make the cut. 🙂

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    1. Hornacek
      Hornacek at |

      The first issues of TETMD were pretty good. Then Smith took a 3 (?) year break and when he came back he decided to make Black Cat a rape victim because hey, comics right? Any female superhero has to have endured a sexual assault because that’s how male writers write female characters. Ugh.

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      1. the trellan
        the trellan at |

        Don’t be too hard on the poor writer, he’s just trying to bring something forward that most people would rather not think about. Unfortunately he fails to understand that this is one of the subjects people read comics to get away from.

        It probably didn’t make the list because many readers had given up entirely on Spider-Man, a title that thrived on the melodrama/romance that writers seem unable or unwilling to include these days. It’s all action, action, and more action now. In other words, not that many read it.

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        1. Hornacek
          Hornacek at |

          Smith took a 3 (?) year break in the middle of the mini-series, that’s just unprofessional. If you can’t complete a 6 (?) issue mini-series, then don’t start it.

          And there was no need to make Black Cat a rape victim. Oh, that’s why she became a costumed character. No, we already got her origin years ago from Marv Wolfman and Roger Stern. But thanks for making a strong female character have a sexual assault in her past. This is a crutch that male comic book writers do to female characters all the time because they think it will give them character and motivation. It just shows that they can’t come up with anything original to writer about the character so “I might as well make her a rape victim, that happens to women!”

  12. Hornacek
    Hornacek at |

    The Aunt May that died wasn’t a clone, she was a “genetically-modified actress”. And it didn’t happen in the Clone Saga, it happened in The Gathering of Five/The Final Chapter right before the reboot. At this point the clone sage was still fresh in Marvel’s memory and they didn’t want to mention any clones in Spidey comics, so they had the Goblin say that he had found an elderly actress and genetically altered her to replace Aunt May.

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  13. Daniel
    Daniel at |

    Poor writing decisions, such as the Spiderman Clone saga, can be forgiven, or at least hopefully forgotten; but the overall downward spiral of the culture of comics, and marvel in particular, can not be.

    The last couple decades have seen a definite and severe moral decline. Comics are no longer about heroes, they now feature super-powered MMA fighters at the best and thugs at the worst. Title characters have forgone interesting back-stories and complex personalities for one-line yell matches and anything goes lifestyles. “Old fashioned” values like truth and justice have to make way for “whatever gets the job done,” and the job itself usually involves beating someone to a pulp because it would make an interesting battle for the reader.

    How many marvel story arcs have you noticed involve heroes fighting one another? Most villains now play a back seat if they are featured at all. It’s far easier for the lazy writer to slap a titillating title of hero-vs-hero together. What have all the big arcs been about in recent years? Civil War, Avengers vs X-men, Hulk vs Everyone. When you have a new generation of writers who adhere to amoral nonsense and don’t believe in the mocked simplicity of good versus evil, then this is where you end up.

    While violence has always been a part of comics, as fighting bad guys will always necessitate combat; the gratuitous and vulgar level of violence has reached a point that even those desensitized to it are still disgusted. This ridiculous level of attempted shock value is what happens when you have no true ideas as a writer. The trend of high death tolls isn’t a creative endeavor, it’s an infantile attempt to grab attention when storytelling is just too hard to accomplish.

    Lastly, the obvious assault on any normality or any positive relationships is the final straw. What do new writers and editors do when they encounter characters who have wholesome relationships or might be positive role models? They demolish those relationships in an attempt to “modernize” the character. A married Spiderman? Can’t have that. The same with happily married DC Dibnys, that relationship needs to go in the most brutal way possible. Storm marrying Black Panther? Of course it is temporary. Kitty and Colossus finally finding happiness? HAH, as if we would let that happen. It’s like one unending bad episode of the latest skanky reality TV show.

    Like much of Hollywood today, instead of comics trying to shine the bright possibilities of humanity to their readers; the industry instead reflects the most base and vile components of society and uses the excuse “this is what people want.” Well, they can tell themselves that little lie to make themselves feel better about peddling their trash, but if I wanted to see filth I would watch the evening news. I used to pick up a comic book to have my inner child dazzled with wonder. Now when I read one all I think about is how new readers are missing out on the good comics of yesteryear.

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    1. thetrellan
      thetrellan at |

      I’m with you there, Daniel, about the shock value preference of writers today. Although Stan Lee used to joke about boring his audience while pausing the main story to focus on back story and character development, it was treating those characters like real people and the development of more realistic relationships between them that helped distinguish Marvel from the competition.

      For 12 years Marvel evolved and defined their world. And once Lee decided he had things just perfect, he decided to expand his horizons beyond comics. So he laid down the rule of illusion of change, denying future writers the freedom to totally choose how character develop, and moved to Hollywood.

      Well, I know that’s a gross oversimplification. But in all the years since, have any relationships come about that tugged the heart the way Peter and Gwen’s did? And why don’t the Avengers feel more like a family after all this time, with cliques of devoted friends and lovers growing closer, then apart? For that matter, why did the New Avengers feel so much like the Defenders, and Wolverine and Cage still don’t come across as really being Avengers at all when they’ve been with the group for so long?

      Because Marvel doesn’t care about any of that stuff. Frankly, it might as well be television.

      Then again, heroes have always fought each other in Marvel comics. It was part of the more realistic approach to characterization.

      DC’s heroes all knew each other’s identities, as if wearing a mask and cape meant a person could be trusted implicitly. But Lee and Kirby both knew that real people often conflict, the more serious the stakes the greater the conflict.

      But yeah, still doing that constantly after more than 50 years doesn’t make sense either.

      Reply
  14. Killed this bitches super-girls fo good
    Killed this bitches super-girls fo good at |

    I hated the wasp all the time since she was created by Stan Lee, glad they did it

    Reply
    1. thetrellan
      thetrellan at |

      Thor was unreadable at first, just a second-rate Superman, until Lee took over completely as the writer.

      Just saying, he may have exercised some mega-poor judgment in his dealings with Kirby, but the dude could write. Without him there would be no Marvel to complain about today.

      Reply
  15. OaG
    OaG at |

    Loeb did a great job of turning a new, great thing into the old thing. The ultimates was one of the best comics and had nothing to do with the avengers, yet he (and his team) managed to turn everyone into their 616 versions, suits and all. Avengers mansion? Iron man’s armor? Thor’s persona, suit and hammer? Wasp not Asian? The guy should at least have read Ultimates 1 and 2 before going in, he clearly didn’t and, ignorant to what it was about, wrote the avengers.

    Ultimates 3 and ultimat drove me away from comics. The sentry and everything revolving around it have kept me well away.

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  16. Silixis
    Silixis at |

    Civil war rakes place over 187 issues. For whatever reason a lot of review sites only read the 7 issues of the main mini-series. When the entire run is read (although the heroes for hire issues can be left out) you get quite and epic story, ranking high with some of the best stories marvel has produced.

    Not to mention the massive buildup it had over the past 3 decades. (There are issues of west coast avengers that talk about proposing a super human registration act). In the years just before civil war, the events of avengers dissambled, house of m, wolverine enemy of the state, and about 20 other story lines all lead up logically to civil war.

    It was an event that needed to happened and was very well written out.

    Of course, if you only judge it on 7 out of 187 issues, discard its decades long buildup and come in with a hateful attitude of all things post avengers dissambled then you will not enjoy it.

    Reply
    1. thetrellan
      thetrellan at |

      Aunt may being a dna-altered actress stretches credulity to the breaking point just to avoid using the clone idea, though. Pete actually never noticed that the woman he’d known his entire life was an actress? Riiight.

      Ever get the feeling your writer suffers from an imagination deficiency? Peter lives in a world that has Reed Richards, for cryin’ out loud! Surely reality can be made to hiccup a time or two in these cases.

      And for those who feel that Civil War was good if you only bought every last title Marvel was putting out at the time, I just want to point out that the title comic for the event shouldn’t really give one a false impression of what’s happening. That’s just poor planning. And this comes from one who cares not one way or another what happened in “Avengers Disassembled”. Don’t care for Finch’s art, so I didn’t get it.

      CW itself was only 7 issues. Those 7 issues made it look like everyone just begins attacking each other at the first whisper of trouble, certainly long before a democratic government has time to enact any kind of legislation. It made no sense, and even a title which is just part of a bigger whole needs to make some kind of sense.

      THAT is why Civil War was Marvel’s biggest mistake of all time, big enough that only in the past year or so have things settled down. It shook up the entire comics industry. Disillusioned fans have left in droves, leaving only the relatively new readers who don’t really understand what all the fuss is about.

      Granted, some, such as myself, waited until well after World War Hulk to leave. I was just hoping things would get better, eventually coming to the conclusion that the Marvel Comics I used to love was just gone forever.

      Reply
  17. Cady
    Cady at |

    I quite liked Civil War… Of course I have quite the flair for dramatics and Civil War was totally my kind of thing. Though, Steve Rogers is my favorite character, so the end of that was a bust.

    If it were up to me honestly I’d put Sins Past as number one on the list just because of how… Entirely WRONG that whole thing was. Of course, I never read Ultimatum or The Ultimates 3, just Ultimates 1 and 2, so Ultimatum could definitely be worse than Sins Past.

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  18. Momus
    Momus at |

    Quesada didn’t all the sudden decide he didn’t like Peter Parker being married. Some of the worst storylines in Marvel history, including the clone saga on your list, were created to try to get Spider-Man back to being single. The scarlet spider was going to be the real Spider-Man, and single, while the clone would go off and live happily ever after with Mary-Jane

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    1. Richard Bottoms
      Richard Bottoms at |

      I’ve seen this plot before. Only then it was called ‘The Stolen Earth’ and ‘Journey’ End” on a little know TV show called Doctor Who.

      Reply

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